Gardens beneath which rivers flow.

la-vie-est-politiques:

yerushalayimshelzahav:

If this is about self determination then tell me why did they never attempt to turn palestine into a sovereign state under ottman rule or jordan’s illegal occupation?

Why did so few Jews fight back during the holocaust?  In the Warsaw Ghetto, why was it not until hundreds of thousands had been shipped out to concentration camps before the ZOB were able to rally a resistance?

When the philosophical concept of nationalist self-determination is a European export which wasn’t realised in colonial states until the fall of European Imperialism predominately after the second world war, why would we expect Palestine to be any different?

If this is truly about wanting a country for ‘palestinian’ population then why did they reject it over 10 times in the course of 60 years?

That’s a very zionist way of looking at it.  Why is it about wanting a country for a specific population?  It’s not.  It’s about self-determination.  Perhaps the reason the treaties over the decades have been rejected is because those treaties were purposefully constructed to a) maintain an apartheid state with dominance to the Jewish/Israeli population, b) to keep people kicked out of their homes and land.  The Palestinian diaspora is one of the largest (if not the) refugee populations that exists today, c) to maintain within the “Jewish” state the dominant and prosperous regions, with fertile land and access to natural resources such as water.  The treaties were both a denial of self-determination and the right to live because they were not fair, balanced and unbiased treaties but instead specifically designed to maintain an oppressive power differential.

Right now the israelis have been living there for 3+ generations. Some no longer have connections to the countries they came from.

And during the British mandate of Palestine, Jewish people were living there harmoniously with the arab community.  Jewish Palestinians, now there’s a thought.  Again though, this isn’t about kicking people out, this is about self-determination.  Why are you making it sound like I want to see people kicked out?

And palestine has technically never exsited.

Which as I’ve said previously doesn’t really mean anything.  Many places have “never existed” in the sense you seem to want it to.  When Italy and Germany unified into the single states we see today, they had never existed in the sense they were talking about but they still made it happen.  Basque, Catalonians, Cornish, Kurdish … these national identities haven’t held sovereign states with self-determination in the sense we refer to in contemporary politics.  That doesn’t mean there aren’t people who claim that such states are the only legitimate way for these national identities to be capable of self-determination.  Shit changes.  History isn’t everything when it’s the future you can change.

They have been conquered countless times after the name was changed from Judea to Provinca Palaestine (Palestine) .

Oh good.  Global politics has repeatedly oppressed them, so Israeli oppression is just par for the course?  If you hadn’t already I think it’s now pretty firmly in the racist territory of discussion.  I was worried for a second you’d manage to go without doing that (well I wasn’t really worried, but I’ll pretend for a bit).

There are many groups of people who live peacefully in countries even though they identify as something else. For example the Kurds who live in Turkey and Native americans who live in America. The natives who live in america identify themselves according to their tribes and live on reservations or within states as citizens. So if other people can do this why cant the palestinians?

Well yes … but there’s a struggle for a sovereign Kurdish state with movements and organisations such as the PKK.  Pretending that Native Americans universally just live happily in the US without facing racism, oppression, cultural appropriation, a denial of their existence on a daily basis is just ridiculous.  The US state is constantly claiming land that’s supposedly a part of reservations when it deems the resources there to be more important than the people.  Lower life expectancy, high unemployment, forced onto less productive and constantly shrinking land, denial of culture …

Yeah try some examples that don’t make you look really ignorant and racist.

damn right.